should i be orthodox or catholic

Teachings of Orthodoxy. All rights reserved. No, Im not saying that everybody could go out and start a home chapel or an outreach, but odds are theres something nearby. I dont know if its going to be next decade, next century. They pray for the souls of the departed, which makes sense only if those prayers can help the departed in some way. Thats not to say that there might not be mitigating circumstances, right? Should I become Orthodox? | St. Nectarios Orthodox Church A. Being constantly reminded of hell/punishment when worshipping seems counter-productive, and it makes the experience feel negative. The whole thing about the "confession of Peter" being the rock, just doesn't seem to fit. Again, were just so delighted with the association. So how does one make the decision then about the particular Orthodox Church? 14:2226; 1 Kgs. Christ Is Risen! In addition to that, though, he placed St. Peter at the head of the apostles in leadership, and that didnt die out in the first entry. I dont think its going to happen in our lifetime and Im seeing things that are taking things further away from that union. And why would we ever want to walk away from that? 1. Some are personal preferences, what your family does, etc. I mean, you find that in Catholicism, unfortunately, but if you take a look in Orthodoxy, they have the same problems. Proof God Exists Why Or How Is It Even Relevant To Us? The Creed is inviolable and cannot be changed. Evangelism dating or something, Im going to go and date a non-Christian in trying to convert them to Christianity.. So youre And I assume, the Ruthenian Byzantine, right? Well, there is a local Greek Orthodox Church that I was able to find refuge in. If you find that in the Byzantine church or maybe something like Maronite, if you find an Eastern Catholic Church speaks to you liturgically more than the Roman, thats fine. Cy Kellett: https://mpoweredchristian.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/mpowered-christian-logo-web-320px.jpg. 13:17), and if Jesus put one particular minister over the others, it would be understood that he had authority over them. B. How is this possible? 'The Empowered Christian Road Map' is an excellent book for living the Christian lifeit's truly a manual for life. What steps would I take to become an Orthodox Christian? I saw a lot of scandals, not only on universal level, but personally. Why should I choose Catholicism over Orthodoxy : r/Catholicism - Reddit The minute it is admitted that Peter has some kind of primacy given to him by Jesus, it becomes very hard to sustain the idea that this was only a kind of first among equals, ceremonial authority (such as that of the chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court). I don't believe i'm complete until i'm in union of the bride of Christ. I did and it definitely ties into the discussion today. These concessions seemed decisive to me. There is never a time when a step away from Christ is the right step, never. 28 As a protestant inquirer, As a Protestant myself, I feel that the Protestant over-emphasis on the legal status before God is not the full picture and has been harmful in some cases. In fact, though, if you go to Orthodoxy, its actually pretty prevalent to find Orthodox clergy and bishops promoting a form of universalism that ultimately everybody is going to be reconciled to Christ. There is entropy in human affairs, just like there is in nature. Yeah. The 21 Coptic Martyrs: More Orthodox Saints in the Catholic Church, Pope to pope: Let our churches be united by Christs love. Similarly, a person can read a dozen books on Orthodox Christianity, but that which he or she has read will not come alive until he or she actually encounters the Church as the worshipping People of God. I'll be frank, I think this is a very shallow issue in regard as to whether Orthodoxy or Catholicism are the right choice. Although the Divine Liturgy has certainly developed over time, this development is nowhere near the changes that have been implemented in the modern Roman Catholic Mass, which was massively changed with the promulgation of the Mass of Pope Paul VI in 1969 after the Second Vatican Council. I believe that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy incorporate works with grace and distort the true gospel as a result. 5/23/2017 4 Comments Original source: Journey to Orthodoxy . Can one be Roman Catholic and Orthodox? Privacy Policy. I have more questions, but these are the two that are the most important to me, please share your thoughts below. I ask this question because recently, Orthodoxy has struck my interest. I also recognized thatifPeter were the rock Christ speaks of in Matthew 16:18, this would make him the earthly leader of the Church in Jesus absence. Not your personal beliefs, not your personal preferences, not what people you respect told you to do. Im going to go to the Maronite Catholic Church. What do you make of that? And I sometimes feel like we think we have the luxury of time with these things, and we probably dont. It was inserted later by Western Christians and eventually authorized by the pope. Look at all the conflicting doctrines found in the Protestant denominations - do you think none of them have scripture verses backing them up? While it is understandable that people in the East would be more comfortable with a pope who had a ceremonial role in presiding over the other bishops of the world, I had concluded that this kind of figurehead role was unlikely to be what Jesus gave Peter. As to the reference to the sheep, that is just pastoral duties - remember that Orthodox believe that all bishops are inheritors of St. Peter - this command is to all bishops. I don't believe i'm complete until i'm in union of the bride of Christ. In Orthodoxy the highest source of authority is the faith itself. Well, is this in fact, the church that Christ established lets talk about it. You should have gone the Orthodox route. So long story short, there are some internal schisms going on right now in Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Faith / It feels like Orthodoxy has really suffered a wound in recent years with some mutual excommunications. This is looking from afar, but it seems like theres a nationalism problem in Orthodoxy. And if they are divided, it makes it that much-. By our membership in the Church, we are incorporated into Christ himself and receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This thread is archived New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast 45 71 One of the things that I think that is actually a barrier between Protestants, especially many evangelical or fundamentalist Protestants, but many Protestants in the United States and Catholics, is our understanding of the role of the nation in our faith. Saints, Feasts, and Readings for 06/21/2023, Julian the Martyr of Tarsus; Terentios, Bishop of Iconium; Nikitas the New Martyr of Nisyros. Thats okay. Thats the main reason why I returned to communion with Rome is because, long story short, if we look at what Christ did in the first century he established a church but in addition to establishing the church, he established a leadership body, a governing body and a teaching body. Very grateful to Michael Lofton taking the time with us. Search, Learn more about the Orthodox Church in America, Orthodoxy and Cults and Non-Christian Groups. So I came into the Catholic Church in 2012 from Protestantism, read my way back through history into the Catholic Church and had about five years where I just experienced a lot of negativity. It seems particularly true now, there is just so much to endure in order to stay a part of the Christian faith and in particular, to stay a part of the Catholic Church. Perhaps God in his Providence is showing me, Michael, you made the wrong choice. You need to change that. Theyre going to tell the other ones what to do. Who do you talk to? No, I don't think its true. Reason and Theology especially is the one that seems to be the most time consuming. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Looks like I spouted some hardcore Protestant heresy. One of the reasons why I think thats bad, even for Catholics is because as a Catholic you should want to see reunion with Eastern Orthodox. So of course, Christ does not will for any of the controversies in the Catholic Church, but He may allow for it. But also, there are different types of the word 'love' being used. Just because he had a prescribed place in the Church doesn't mean its a necessary place - the honor of Peter is also preserved in the honor given to any bishop. The pope doesnt have the authority to change the Creed. You go to Orthodoxy and there is by quite a few Orthodox clergy, a promotion, or at least an allowance I should say, of artificial contraception, divorce, and remarriage and other troubling aspects. After all, Jesus had some hard sayings himself. Jacob Sparks is a graduate of the University of Georgia with undergraduate degrees in both math and religion. And so, theres a very sense in which youre then moving away from Christ Himself. Stay away from thinking that one is true and the others are false. In other words, one cannot embrace Orthodox Christianity without embracing Orthodox Christians. You must log in or register to reply here. By virtue of our membership in the Church, our personal prayers are amplified and bolstered by the prayers of our fellow members in the Body of Christ. One washes the dishes, one dries, one puts them away, one sweeps, one does the counter, right? If one of the younger kids says, I dont want to listen to you. Orthodox Christians generally celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which has its origins in the tradition of the Cappadocian Church Fathers in the fourth and fifth centuries. It may not display this or other websites correctly. And so the question is, if Christ actually did establish the Catholic Church, should we ever take a step away from that community? When you look at the entirety of the Roman papacy in the first 1,000 years of the Church, its plain that he in no way/shape/form was considered supreme or infallible. It emerged in my reading that many Orthodox were prepared to make two key concessions regarding the papacy: that Jesus did give Peter a form of primacy over the other apostles (though this was conceived of first among equals role) and that the bishop of Rome is in a special sense the successor of Peter, though other bishops also may in some sense be Peters successors. Again, Im not making judgments on any individuals, but I am saying objectively, its very dangerous territory. So I really appreciate yall. Okay. Another thing is some people are troubled by what they feel to be liberal doctrines or universalism espoused in Catholicism. 1. And you can see this attested to, for example, in whats called the formula of Hermes, which ended a schism in the fifth century, which many Orthodox Well, I should say many Eastern bishops signed. No, the Ecumenical Councils devloped those things which could be developed (and needed to be because of arising heresies) when judged against the canon of the Faith. edit2: quoting from a pm because I would like your responses. That would help tremendously, I currently have very little income and wouldn't be able to purchase the book for myself for quite some time. For more information, see theFilioquetract online at www.catholic.com.). Thats not to say they dont have any unity with the church He established, but it is to say they dont have a perfect unity with Christ in his church. We are all meant to be in union with God. The church has decided it has infallibility to determine doctrine. This period of instruction, discernment and spiritual formation also affords you with the opportunity to develop and strengthen your relationship with the parishs clergy and faithfulthose with whom you will worship in Spirit and truth and with whom you will share in fellowship as a member of the Body of Christ, the Church. In Rome, each person tells me One Thing About SSPX, Vatican II, Charismatism And NO Missae as well. And I dont say that with any kind of glee in my voice. Our loyalty to our religion should only come about because we #1 (believe it to be the most true) and therefore only choose that one because we believe #2 (it will bring glory to God the most). Weird Question: A Title for Origen Adamantius. (2) Resolve each dispute on your own. So in their-. Contraception? You must log in or register to reply here. Perhaps they were abused by priest. It seems like from a purely intellectual insight that you really must be in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Mm-hmm (affirmative), thats true. I would have to accept that whether I became Catholic or Orthodox. Thats absolutely right. And were just delighted that hes going to be an affiliate here of us at Catholic Answers. While the era of new public revelation is now closed, it wasnt unreasonable that there be a special teaching charism associated with the office of the earthly leader of Gods people in the New Testament age. What steps would I take to become an Orthodox Christian? This week, we welcome Michael Lofton who made his way from Protestantism into Catholic Church, made his way from the Catholic Church into Greek Orthodoxy. There are situations in which church A is in communion with church B, and church B is in communion with church C, but A is not in communion with C. For example, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is in communion with some Orthodox churches but not others (notably the Russian Orthodox church). The Importance of Catholic Orthodoxy | beginningCatholic.com I believe there is something beautiful about our unity for God amongst our diversity. The prayer of one member of the Church is enhanced and echoed in the prayers of the entire communion of saints. The fundamental reality is the same, as is its most obvious practical implication in this life: prayer for the dead. Facebook | Right? The primary function of the ministers is to administer the Sacred Mysteries (Sacraments), which, because they communicate the divine life, assist us in the process of theosis. Orthodoxys most recent doctrinal codification dates back to the fourteenth century, when St. Gregory Palamas solidified the essence-energy distinction in order to combat heresy. A bit more detail here on the Orthodox understanding? What can the Church offer me? We are, one could say, spiritual cousins to each other, sharing a family history that stretches back through the first millennium of Christianity. Archived post. As Saint Paul reminds us, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another [Romans 12:5; see also Ephesians 4:25]. But again, the problem right now is the Russian patriarch does not recognize the patriarch of Constantinople, which the Greek Orthodox Church is under thats their patriarch. In these Mysteries the divine touches and transforms the human. Which Christianity took a foothold. Yeah, this is a thing of great sadness at the moment and one that really I dont At least I havent sensed that among Catholics theres some sense of, you can kind of be uppity or have schadenfreude or whatever, but it doesnt feel like that. So the phrase that many Catholics use for coming into the church from Protestants is, Swimming the Tiber. Coming across that river, that divides the Vatican side from downtown Rome. "3) Papacy: This is one of the major ones, as the other two are not necessarily doctrinal. Thats metaphysical impossible. I mean, obviously theres exceptions, but those tend to be the largest. Copyright 2015-2022. But we do have the guilt of our own actual sin. To be able to do penance and be purified, we need the sustenance which the Church provides in its liturgical life and its sacraments. with questions about the Orthodox Faith. Fed-up Catholics Shouldn't Turn to Orthodoxy Michael Lofton 3/2/2022 Download Audio only: Michael Lofton of the Reason and Theology podcast shares his experience of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy and eventually returning. I've read a lot from St Paisios and have never come across anything that could be interpreted as supporting contraception. Reddit, Inc. 2023. And in that way, maybe we make our contribution to it not being a thing for others to endure, but to be a thing, to bless others and to bless the whole world. For the first 1,200 years of Christianity this was not the case and in fact did not become dogma until the 1300's. If the Creed is to be changed, it should be done in union with the East (meaning specifically the Orthodox). All rights reserved. Once again, a very warm welcome to Michael Lofton and well see you next time right here at Catholic Answers Focus. Thats the deal breaker for me. Now, theres so there is making it closer, but I dont think its going to happen in our lifetime. Why the Church? Now, in some cases, maybe youre Russian Orthodox and you can go to a local Greek church or vice versa, youre a Greek Orthodoxy you can go to a local Russian church and receive communion, but in some cases thats not the case. The idea of sin as a sickness in need of healing is very powerful, and very necessary. Orthodox do not have this issue. Its on, again, YouTube and podcasts, Stitcher, iTunes, all that good stuff. Matt. JavaScript is disabled. (1 Corinthians 10:31, Colossians 3:17, Colossians 3:23). In his spare time he can be found reading the Bible and the Church Fathers or goofing off with his friends. Michael Lofton next. And that is doubts on whether or not they should be in the Catholic Church. The closest is four and a half hours away. Peter responds that he 'philos' Him - loves Him naturally and does not presume to love Him more than the other disciples. Rather than using the image of fire for the purification (cf. I agree, because the Catholic Church needs the Eastern Orthodox Church. Right? Now, another troubling aspect is you might say, Well, theres a lot of Catholics that arent following church teaching on contraception or divorce and remarriage. He is currently enrolled as a seminarian at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology. Why should I be Orthodox instead of Catholic? : r - Reddit The point of dispute was the kind of authority. This is where Christ comes in. It is generally celebrated with either Byzantine chant or Slavic choral music. The Head of the Church. Why I Am Not Eastern Orthodox | Catholic Answers Orthodox Christians seek to meticulously keep the faith of the early Church, namely that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all according to St. Vincent of Lerins (a fifth century Irish monk). 6:45; 2 Tim. I have read many things on the internet, as well as a number of books about the Churchs faith, worship and history. yeah, but most of the Fathers say that it was St Peter's confession that was the rock, and that is why Simon was named Peter. 10 Differences Between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches 11:36). Maybe youre right. In answering the question of which of the apostles is the greatest (Luke 22:24), Jesus may have stressed the principle of servant leadership (22:2527) and stressed that all the apostles would have authority (22:2830), but he identified Peter as the one with pastoral charge concerning the others (22:3132). But is this reason enough for me to belong? But Christ gave the Church a mandate to preach the gospel toallpeoples (cf. This could take some timeperhaps a year or more, depending on a variety of circumstancesand should not be rushed. Just as we pray that Gods will, not our own, be done, so too we pray that we might embrace the faith in Gods time, not our own. With no pope to call or recognize ecumenical councils, the Orthodox havent had one in centuries. First-century Palestinians had a theocratic view of governmentliterally. I want to become a part of a church. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. But, the liturgical problems within the Catholic Church are in some places minor, in other places they almost cried to heaven with this scandal. The problem is whenever you go to some kind of Bishop or jurisdiction, thats not in the Catholic Church, because again, youre then taking a step away from Christ and not listening to the authority that He put in place. The early Church certainly understood Christs ministers as having authority over laity (cf. working on your doctorate in theology now? So hes kind of a good patron for those who wish for there to be unity between the Wast and West, but the St. Maximus the Confessor Institute is its also found on reasonandtheology.com youll see a tab on there and what it is I have different theologians and professors who will come on and deliver seminary level lectures for free on various topics. One option I considered was becoming Eastern Orthodox. how to structure the church and how to have primacy in the church mixed with synodality. Catholicism also has things to attract a rightly disposed Evangelical: the liturgy, the Eucharist, confession, confirmation, Sacred Tradition, apostolic succession. I know a lot of people dont want to hear this. Theres a little bit of, the grass is greener kind of thing here that we can romanticize those and maybe even exoticize the East, like its some kind of liturgical paradise. As to the papal issues, you are right that Peter had a place of honr, and that the Bishop of Rome, canonically if nothing else, also had a place of honor. we'll be happy to answer it! Why the Church? Orthodox does seem a little bit of nationalistic, almost like a cultural club -- I am not Russian, I am not Greek, or Arabic. So it really is an honor to be here. I would have to decide on theological grounds. What about the person who says, But Christ could not have willed all of this that has gone on, this abuse, all the money chicanery, all the, I dont know, princeliness of bishops who should have been humble rather than princely? Just thought, The whole ugly mess that weve been in, Christ couldnt have willed that, how could He want me to stay in this church?. Ultimately, though, I recognized that it was not up to me to decide this question; it was up to the Church. And again, this formula notes that, To be in communion with the Catholic Church, its essential to be in communion with the apostolic namely, the Bishop of Rome. So its kind of like this, if you take a step away from that leadership structure, away from it from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, theres a real sense in which you lose some unity with Christ Himself because Christ incarnation is extended into his mystical body, into the Catholic Church. Is Catholicism self-defeating and circular? But where would I end up? That passage is very interesting in the Greek. And then from Greek Orthodoxy back into the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Question: Why Catholic and Not Eastern Orthodox? At the end of the day, or life, this is all that matters. Would you please, because Id like to know? And, again, I dont say that gleefully. We have to make decisions. The 21 Coptic Martyrs: More Orthodox Saints in the Catholic Church, Zelensky Rejects Pope Francis Offer of Mediating Peace Talks Fr. I dont have any Eastern Catholic Churches nearby. By our membership in the Church, we are incorporated into Christ himself and receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I never quite understood this swimming the Tiber thing, because both sides are Catholic actually in Rome. I dont say that in any kind of joyful way, I think that the problem of sin, youre going to find in any communion out there. All Christians need to remember that our loyalty should not be to our religion. I dont know if I could make an argument, but I can sense thats a metaphysical impossibility. Founder, Lead Pastor at MPowered Christian Ministries. L ists like this are usually so much clickbait, I know, but I thought it was nevertheless worthwhile to compile a list of most of the reasons why I became and/or remain an Orthodox Christian.Some of these things were not really on my radar when I became Orthodox in 1998, but they are part of the reason why I genuinely do love belonging to the Orthodox Church (which is why "and/or Remain . The weakness of our nature, disfigured as it is by sin, often leads us to neglect this call. But once we get into that discussion, were away from subjective factors and were now into objective criteria, Okay. On the surface, Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism can seem similar: both celebrate the sacraments, believe in the authority of the Church, have a common liturgical tradition to draw on, and seek to follow Jesus Christ. We pray for one another. Well, I think one troubling aspect that you might find is, for example, theres a lot of concern in Catholicism about prayers with people who are non-Catholics, sometimes thats seen as, Oh, this is a false understanding of a humanism and this is going against Gods will because youre praying with schismatics. And people think that, Okay. Where do you go? 12:4-5; 1 Cor 12:12-14,27). In fact, in some cases, unfortunately I think it might be scorched to earth. Theres a real sense in which theyre then disobeying me if they disobey them, because I put the oldest in authority. I just didnt yet recognize him as the rock. Obviously, I am asking in a biased place but why should I become a catholic and not an orthodox? Yeah, theres a major division right now taking place between the Russian Orthodox Church and especially the Patriarch of Constantinople although its now spilled over into issues involving the Alexandrian patriarch hit. Because we are part of the Church and incorporated into Christ, the Holy Spirit, in coming to rest on the Son, comes to rest on us. Those who will guide you through your period of instruction and formation surely will help you in this regard. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Theres a lot we could learn with their conviction to remain faithful, to antiquity and tradition. This is not an argument by itself, as catholicity is not simply measured by how many cultures a church embraces. Or scripture? But youre right, there is a practical difficulty there in actually becoming Orthodox. But, in their favor, they do have that. Or dont struggle with it is the main problem. Here are some things pushing me away from Catholicism. It is in the church alone that we have access to the sacramental Mysteries. As Kallistos Ware virtually admits, there is no practical way for the Orthodox to call or agree upon an ecumenical council (cf. The Church gives us a way to pray and even specific words for prayer. The Orthodox Church retains the early Church model of synodal governance. With no pope to call or recognize ecumenical councils, the Orthodox havent had one in centuries. Instagram | And a great asset to the Catholic Church to people who would like to explore, defend, understand the Catholic faith, but you left Michael at one point you left us. I would be more than happy to send it to you, if you think it would help you understand the Eastern Orthodox viewpoint on these matters. And so, that moment is upon us in many, many ways. They might see an Archbishop promoting certain political figures that are very questionable or even promoting moral positions that are very questionable. I'm an Eastern Orthodox Who left The Church 4 times back to Rome And them returned. Through the Church, Christ himself is with us. Im not saying that but what I am saying is, it is a step away from the perfect community that Christ established for us. Some of the opinion that, If youre, for example, Orthodox and you become convicted of Catholicism, you should stay where youre at. Or, If youre Catholic, you can become convicted of Orthodoxy, stay where youre at. Or perhaps go to the other one to help bring them to unity. Assuming that, after subsequent visits, you grow into the conviction that Orthodox Christianity is the fullness of Truth as revealed by Jesus Christ and discern your desire to embrace faith in Our Lord in its fullness, make your desire known to the parish priest, who will initiate the period of instruction and spiritual formation that eventually would lead to your reception into the Church. I agree here, with your standpoint. It seemed to me that it was easier to explain matters if one accepted the second possibility: The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ and the Orthodox are, regrettably, in schism at present.

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